61 replies to this topic

[Mortalcoil]

People are talking like it's impossible to equip more than 4 ERML's and 1 HLL. You know you can just stagger the laser fire. If that's too hard, just download fire control or use a programmable mouse and it will do the stagger for you. Yeah, the effective duration will be longer, but it's not like it's impossible to equip the lasers anymore. We can overcome this nerf and be better for it.

EDIT: lol, people think that ghost heat kicks in until after .5 seconds after burn duration. Man, you would think people would actually test things out before making statements like that.

Edited by Mortalcoil, 12 May 2018 - 08:19 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mortalcoil, on 11 May 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

People are talking like it's impossible to equip more than 4 ERML's and 1 HLL. You know you can just stagger the laser fire. If that's too hard, just download fire control or use a programmable mouse and it will do the stagger for you. Yeah, the effective duration will be longer, but it's not like it's impossible to equip the lasers anymore. We can overcome this nerf and be better for it.

The issue here is that Clan already had lower damage/tick values than IS comparing highest alpha laser vomit builds. Increasing Clan laser vomit by 0.5 seconds further increases the gap by which IS is superior and to have *only* a 0.5 second delay you are required to use a macro, otherwise you're likely having a longer delay than that.

[Flutterguy]

Stop trying to be reasonable. This is the moment for drama queens to bemoan the worst thing to ever happen. We can point out rational solutions AFTER the world has ended.

[thievingmagpi]

Mech Slapfighter

[Spare Parts Bin]

Promessa, on 11 May 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

STand in front of me and fire your lasers for 2 full seconds and see how that turns out

Like that response. I prefer Ballistics and Energy together. I am good at staggering fire.

[Mortalcoil]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 May 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

The issue here is that Clan already had lower damage/tick values than IS comparing highest alpha laser vomit builds. Increasing Clan laser vomit by 0.5 seconds further increases the gap by which IS is superior and to have *only* a 0.5 second delay you are required to use a macro, otherwise you're likely having a longer delay than that.

I suppose clan will have to rely on their superior speed, range, targetting computers, fero fibrous, endo-steel, free case, lighter weapons, weapons with less crit space, and omnipod variability.

Edited by Mortalcoil, 11 May 2018 - 07:56 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Mortalcoil, on 11 May 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

I suppose clan will have to rely on their superior speed, range, targetting computers, fero fibrous, endo-steel, free case, lighter weapons, weapons with less crit space, and omnipod variability.

Yeah all that is much more important than much cooler, faster firing, lower beam duration weapons, that concentrate damage much more effectively and efficiently, not to mention that requires less face time before being able to duck and cover. Oh and lets not forget all that extra armor and structure Clan weapons have to chew through when engaging those darn inferior IS mechs, that stuff is meaningless in the face of superior clan tech. Also all that locked structure and armor crits, fixed engine sizes, fixed JJs, and in some cases fixed heat sinks and wasted heat sink slots inside of engines that clan omnimechs have to deal with is just meaningless in the face of being able to shift a laser from the right arm to the left arm on those mechs. Why the Clans have got it so good that all of them should be given negative quirks just to knock them down to the low, low levels of inferior tech IS pilots have to deal with. I mean it is just so obvious how great Clan mechs are, why has it taken them so long???

[Prototelis]

Dude, clan laser vomit mechs dissipate heat at a much faster rate than their IS counterparts. They're honestly not that hot.

What sucks about this is that instead of narrowing the gap between a handfull of outliers and entire tech base, they've slammed an entire tech base into the dirt and hurt everything except for the top performing mechs.

Changes like this also generally make the game less fun. Shooting less is not fun. Would have rather seen a damage reduction coupled with a cooldown reduction. That way you tone down the alpha, but the impact seems lower because you get to shoot more often.

This is only going to contribute to more mechs playing peek-a-boo.

[MechaBattler]

Perhaps the clans will have to run more diverse builds.


Yeah, that'll be the day. Gauss vomit all day long

[Mortalcoil]

Viktor Drake, on 11 May 2018 - 09:27 PM, said:

Yeah all that is much more important than much cooler, faster firing, lower beam duration weapons, that concentrate damage much more effectively and efficiently, not to mention that requires less face time before being able to duck and cover. Oh and lets not forget all that extra armor and structure Clan weapons have to chew through when engaging those darn inferior IS mechs, that stuff is meaningless in the face of superior clan tech. Also all that locked structure and armor crits, fixed engine sizes, fixed JJs, and in some cases fixed heat sinks and wasted heat sink slots inside of engines that clan omnimechs have to deal with is just meaningless in the face of being able to shift a laser from the right arm to the left arm on those mechs. Why the Clans have got it so good that all of them should be given negative quirks just to knock them down to the low, low levels of inferior tech IS pilots have to deal with. I mean it is just so obvious how great Clan mechs are, why has it taken them so long???

I suppose in the MWO 2017 world championships, when 95% of the mechs were clan, it was just to give the enemies a sporting chance, right?

[Mcgral18]

Mortalcoil, on 11 May 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

People are talking like it's impossible to equip more than 4 ERML's and 1 HLL. You know you can just stagger the laser fire. If that's too hard, just download fire control or use a programmable mouse and it will do the stagger for you. Yeah, the effective duration will be longer, but it's not like it's impossible to equip the lasers anymore. We can overcome this nerf and be better for it.

The correct response is to NOT do that, as it leaves you open to incredible amounts of precision return fire, without mitigation options available (IE, torso twisting)


PGI removing 33% of the available damage pool outright killed SPLs
The utility of ERMLs won't allow that to happen, but you won't see much chainfire aside from 8 MPL mechs (well, 4+4 staggered groups)


You will see Gauss Vomit, not Chain Fire laservomit.
This affects smaller, and worse, robots much more than the heavy hitters. Notice the Mk2s don't even need to change their loadout? They lose 5-10 degs twist range.


It's a silly, arbitrary and insanely heavy hitting change, for the "small incremental balancing" they were seeking
Decrease damage, and balance from there
It's incredibly simple, and new players won't be confused as to why they're now nuking themselves on Trial mechs.

[BTGbullseye]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 May 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

The issue here is that Clan already had lower damage/tick values than IS comparing highest alpha laser vomit builds. Increasing Clan laser vomit by 0.5 seconds further increases the gap by which IS is superior and to have *only* a 0.5 second delay you are required to use a macro, otherwise you're likely having a longer delay than that.

That 500ms has to be applied after the lasers stop burning, not after you pull the trigger... That means a minimum of 2.5 sec added to facetime if you're wanting to put full damage to the enemy. Easily enough time for the enemy to both twist away 75% of the component damage, and return fire.

[Mortalcoil]

BTGbullseye, on 11 May 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

That 500ms has to be applied after the lasers stop burning, not after you pull the trigger... That means a minimum of 2.5 sec added to facetime if you're wanting to put full damage to the enemy. Easily enough time for the enemy to both twist away 75% of the component damage, and return fire.

Interesting, I figured somebody with 854 posts would know how ghost heat works, but apparently not.

[LordNothing]

the reason alpha works is because you fire everything while minimizing face time. if you have to stagger your fire, you loose that advantage.

that said i dont think its going to affect playstyles and builds that much, a little but not that much. high level players have never had problems with gh producing salvos durring moderate to long range trading, just hide in the ditch until the red goes away. it might bring back the best ppc in the game though. only reason i havent been using them is because i could do better with hlls. i was having a lot of luck with my ppc warhawk lately, and i always bring it on cold maps. i had a good run with it in terra therma yesterday.

[Khobai]

Why didnt PGI just lower the damage on clan lasers

there was no need for this idiotic ghost heat change

[BTGbullseye]

Mortalcoil, on 11 May 2018 - 10:41 PM, said:

Interesting, I figured somebody with 854 posts would know how ghost heat works, but apparently not.

Go test it yourself if you don't believe me... Firing before the burn time completes + 500ms results in ghost heat on all my laser vomit builds.

[Luminis]

Mortalcoil, on 11 May 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

People are talking like it's impossible to equip more than 4 ERML's and 1 HLL. You know you can just stagger the laser fire. If that's too hard, just download fire control or use a programmable mouse and it will do the stagger for you. Yeah, the effective duration will be longer, but it's not like it's impossible to equip the lasers anymore. We can overcome this nerf and be better for it.

Why would I do that if, instead, I can just ignore the Mechs that mounted affected loadouts and keep playing an ever decreasing list of Mechs that dodged the bullet?

Fine, the oh-so-overpowered Marauder IIC gets sold, I'll spend the time in the Deathstrike instead, because the 4x ERML, 2x ERLL, 2x Gauss build wasn't heads and shoulders above the MAD-IIC anyway, I guess?

BTGbullseye, on 11 May 2018 - 11:20 PM, said:

Go test it yourself if you don't believe me... Firing before the burn time completes + 500ms results in ghost heat on all my laser vomit builds.

Nope, it's 500ms after the trigger pull, whether it's "Mixed Greens" or cMPL vomit.

[STEF_]

Mortalcoil, on 11 May 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

People are talking like it's impossible to equip more than 4 ERML's and 1 HLL. You know you can just stagger the laser fire. If that's too hard, just download fire control or use a programmable mouse and it will do the stagger for you. Yeah, the effective duration will be longer, but it's not like it's impossible to equip the lasers anymore. We can overcome this nerf and be better for it.

this is plain stooopid, because GH trigger if you shoot before 0.5 seconds.
So, u must add laser durations+ 0.51 seconds+ laser duration-------> instagibbed by the entire enemy team shooting at u.

Alert, alert...... suggestion FAIL

Flutterguy, on 11 May 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

Stop trying to be reasonable. This is the moment for drama queens to bemoan the worst thing to ever happen. We can point out rational solutions AFTER the world has ended.

U do know why this place is called "brown sea", right?

Because sh1tty suggestions and vocal minority ruining mwo over the years.

o/

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 12 May 2018 - 12:12 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Reposting here since people have no idea what they're talking about if they think this nerf is in any way reasonable.

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 May 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

2LPL+4ERML HBR (21 heatsinks)
Damage: 52
Duration: 1.25s
Heat: 45.2
Cooling: 3.65s
Damage/tick: 41.6/s
Damage/Heat: 1.15
Time to Cool: 12.38

2LPL + 4 ERML EBJ-PRIME (old meta is now new meta for laser vomit)
Damage: 52
Duration: 1.25s
Heat: 45.2
Cooling: 4.25s
Damage/tick: 41.6/s
Damage/Heat: 1.15
Time to Cool: 10.64

2LL+6ERML GHR-5N (21 heatsinks) (-5% heat and some durability quirks)
Damage: 48
Duration: 1.10s
Heat: 38.95
Cooling: 3.65/s
Damage/tick: 43.64
Damage/Heat: 1.23
Time to Cool: 10.67

3LL+6ERML GHR-5P (20 heatsinks) (+5% range and some durability quirks)
Damage: 52
Duration: 1.10
Heat: 48
Cooling: 3.5
Damage/tick: 47.27
Damage/Heat: 1.08
Time to Cool: 13.71

6ERML + 2LL + 1LPL BL-6B-KNT (-10% heat, sensor range boost, substantial structure boosts)
Damage: 58
Duration: 1.10
Heat: 43.425
Cooling: 3.5
Damage/tick: 52.73
Damage/Heat: 1.34
Time to Cool: 12.41

So ton for ton IS has superior laser vomit *and* they have the option to bring more *AND* in a twist of irony the highest alpha build in the list that also has the highest structure quirks also has the highest damage per heat and damage per tick and just gets a random sensor boost because reasons.

I don't know what you mean by
"an IS mech carrying a 250LFE + 6DHS will have around 2.9Heat Dissipation/Sec @21.5 & 28Crits,
an Clan mech carrying a 250XL + 6DHS will have around 3.5Heat Dissipation/Sec @22.0 & 30Crits,"
Clan heatsinks aren't better than IS heatsinks, they're just smaller.

Also in practice many laser boating Clan mechs in question don't even have access to endo or ferro such as the Hellbringer, which has equal heatsinks with the first Grasshopper build there. Ebon Jaguar gets more heatsinks than all the rest here, pretty much best clan mech for laser vomit under the new conditions and its worse than any of the IS options aside from in time to cool off.

None of this takes into account IS having superior cooldown, duration, and heat gen skill tree nodes.

[BTGbullseye]

Luminis, on 12 May 2018 - 12:04 AM, said:

Nope, it's 500ms after the trigger pull, whether it's "Mixed Greens" or cMPL vomit.

When did they change it? I tried last night, and it had to be after the fire duration for CMPL on a Cougar...